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Ten Things in India that You Can’t Get in China

By Chris Devonshire-Ellis

Sept. 17 – Traveling extensively as I do now between India and China, I am often asked about the differences between the two countries. On one level, they are very much the same: huge nations with long coastlines, massive populations and emerging economies. Yet beyond that, when looking at the differences, it starts to get a little fuzzy, even conceptual.

To deal with the issue and understand the similarities and differences, I have written down the first top ten things I can get in India that I cannot in China. While not exactly scientific, this is what I came up with. Little deep thought or research went into these choices, but the fact they sprang to my mind first of all does indicate immediacy. Here is the list:

  1. YouTube
  2. Twitter
  3. Facebook
  4. online pornography
  5. independent media
  6. independent judiciary
  7. elected government officials
  8. stock markets with foreign companies listed
  9. religion
  10. cotton wool balls

In recognizing these, they all point to the story of freedom that Liang Qichao talked about in his India as a mentor to China speech when welcoming the Indian poet Tagore to Beijing in 1924.

Social Networking

Youtube is permanently blocked in China, apparently because the government objected to footage of a Tibetan monk being shot by Chinese soldiers as he sought refuge across the Himalayas. The footage was recent, and was filmed by a French mountaineering team on the Indian side. Tracking the movements of the solitary figure walking slowly through the snows to the Indian border, shots were  heard as the monk he collapsed on the snow. China was outraged, calling the footage “fake.”  Youtube has been blocked in China since and in India it is not.

Facebook and Twitter are both a social phenomena, ideally suited for bringing people together. Twitter has been used for networking and relaying small bites of information and lately even as an effective marketing application for small and medium enterprises. Facebook also offers networking possibilities and better ways to share information with family and friends.

Apparently to prevent unauthorized information getting out about the recent riots in Xinjiang, China has put a hold on the use of both Twitter and Facebook in the country. The Chinese versions of the sites have also been closed down. In India, they remain everyday social tools, people are free to connect, get silly and spread news among themselves. In this sense too, Indians are socially freer than their Chinese counterparts in their ability to talk to each other and to share and debate common experiences, be it  good and bad. China doesn’t appear to have that trust of its own citizens, and denies them the tools.

Morality

Pornography is a social ill and has long been frowned upon by the Communist Party as immoral, a line few would dispute. Yet the banning of it from online viewing, which itself is not fully actionable, puts the state in the role of moral guardian. India doesn’t block porn but uses its own, secular religious fabric to teach people morals. Be they Hindi, Muslim, Christian, they all preach a sense of right or wrong to their believers. That doesn’t necessarily prevent people from behaving badly but by and large in the Indian population knows the difference between right and wrong.

I am not sure that is the case in China. With the state acting as guardian of China’s moral behavior, the Chinese have become largely amoral  and not knowing the difference between right and wrong. This leads to selfishness and the rampant materialism we see today in China. Self first, regardless of the consequences. It’s a self defeating path, leading to short-term, immediate goals as the be all and end all, and is a growing problem in terms of how the Chinese deal with the problems that now affect their country. Corruption, environmental issues, IPR theft and bullying all stem from this amorality. It remains China’s biggest social problem to date.

Independent management

Concerning independence of media, a trend is appearing. International newspapers are sometimes not available and some publications are banned. All Chinese media are given instructions on how and what to report by the state. India on the other hand has a raucous, independent media, although it can be annoying as much as censorship at times. Newspapers are in business to make money and sensationalism rules with the media concentrating often on the lowest common denominator.

India’s press is hung up with its relations with Pakistan, and to some extent China. They shriek and can be uncomfortable in their rhetoric, some of it on occasion even quite bizarre. But on the other hand, woe to the businessman or government official exposed as a conman, a cheat, or worse. While I’m not fully comfortable with the role of media as a nation’s watchdog, the silence from China’s media and reluctance to permit truly independent investigative journalism gets worrying in addition to issues with China’s control of social networking sites. That’s just too much, and given my overall dislike of the jabbering newshounds who represent much of India’s media, I prefer to retain the ability to self censor it out rather than have it done by some shadowy figure lurking in China’s ministerial corridors.

The same is true of an independent judiciary. In India, you can take the government to court and win. In China, there is no chance. Take the case of the melamine scandal, the fact that local government officials were apparently involved in the corruption that led to the incident meant the central government could not afford to permit further scrutiny of the role of government corruption in the case be exposed. A one party state can only tolerate so much criticism. In the melamine case, the ability to take cases against government officials were denied. That is not an independent judiciary.

India’s media and judiciary would have dealt with the matter according to law and the guilty found and publicly punished. Who or what occurred in the China melamine case will never be known – which significantly increases the chances of a similar event occurring again.

Democracy

Having an elected government means that the elected members of India’s Parliament have to listen to their constituents. If they do not – they run the real risk of getting voted out of office at the next election. It’s a self censoring way of ensuring that the people have a real say in the running of their country and that pressing local issues can be heard by an audience representing the entire country.

Again, the one party state denies Chinese nationals this. In India, it is regarded as a fundamental basic right and discussing the subject with Indians leads to looks of utter incredulity that Chinese nationals could allow themselves to be governed without having a say.

The discussion is topical with many Chinese believing that their country is forging far ahead of India because they have a one party state. Some Indian politicians may even be secretly be envious of the ability of China’s government to push through reform without recourse to debate.

However, China’s rise has also occurred during an evolutionary phase in India’s democracy. An India coalition government for the past twenty years has not proved effective in dealing with the country’s many problems. However, with the new Congress Party having a de facto majority in place, we may now truly start to see a competition between the two systems. India’s democracy is now powerful, with a people united in their choices behind government.

While it remains to be seen whether the choices that will be made will let India catch up, democracy affords a less risky structure of progress with problems debated on all political fronts before decisions are taken. This is the weakness of China’s one party state and put to the test its problems including corruption and environment.

Openness to foreign business

The issue over foreign companies listing in China has been debated for some time and some reforms are expected to be announced soon. At present, despite the fact the Shanghai index is regularly treated as a China indicator, the reality is that no foreign businesses are listed on it. That means that not a dollar of the huge amount of foreign direct investment that China has received over the past twenty years is reflected in its stock market performances. Add that to the little quoted statistic that 90 percent of the companies listed in mainland China are directly or indirectly owned by the state, and you have a market where the government acts as regulator, banker and holds the dice all at the same time.

It’s close to being rigged and far from healthy, as any look at the performances of the Shanghai exchange would indicate. India on the other hand, while its total value of traded stock is far lower than China, does have transparency and has long welcomed subsidiaries of foreign multinationals to list on its exchanges. It’s mutually cooperative. American multinational companies are strictly governed by the FCPA or similar regulatory bodies back in the United States and that affects the transparency of Mumbai’s Sensex.

The lack of foreign invested businesses in China’s stock markets is not just a source of embarrassment to China, it is also indicative of the cronyism that exists within the Shanghai and Shenzhen bourses. They are far from mature, far from healthy and not indicative of China’s performance or an indicator of its progress. Why they are referred to as such and credited with moving markets elsewhere globally remains a mystery, at least to me.

Finally, cotton wool balls. As a consumer product, they are simple and globally available. From being used to dab antiseptic onto a graze, to removing nail polish, every cash and carry I know stocks them although in China, cotton wool is only sold in specialist medical stores. Go figure.

Next week, I’ll turn the tables and ask “Ten Things in China that You Can’t Get in India” and roast the other side of the equation. But for this week, the issues are as above. Comments are welcome.

Chris Devonshire-Ellis is the founding partner of Dezan Shira & Associates and lived in China for 21 years. He is now based in Mumbai.

This entry was posted in Culture & History. Bookmark the permalink.

40 Responses to Ten Things in India that You Can’t Get in China

  1. Sumeet says:

    Two things that India has and that China wants are:

    1) Dalai Lama: We are proud to have him as a Guest and a part of India. He is running his protest in the most peaceful manner and like once Mahatama Gandhi did for India.

    2) Arunachal Pradesh: Well, be ware Chinese intruders… who crossed the Mac Mohan Line into Indian side. Though India has no first attack policy but we still can and will protect our mother land. Bravo India for operation “Alert” and posting may battalions in the border.

    But we still beleive as every Indian does

    “Power of silence is more than a loud noise”
    “Power of peace is more than any war”

    Regards

    Sumeet

  2. China needs to open its people to learning of English language! this is a key factor for all chinese companies wishing to do business with India or other countries.

  3. E. Ng says:

    Being a Chinese, I especially agree with you that “the Chinese” have become largely amoral and not knowing the difference between right and wrong resulting in fatal selfishness and materialism and yet many are unaware of that (or choose not to). Early this month, a 6-year old kid in Guangzhou said her aspiration is to become a “greedy corrupt official”. Very sad, isn’t it?

    This is not only China’s biggest social problem to date, but the biggest obstacle to China’s long-term development in the future.

    I must however say that in my >25 years encounter with the mainland Chinese, I do come across many righteous who unfortunately, are overshadowed by the benighted.

  4. AKS says:

    On the eve of the 20th anniversary of the Tiananmen killings, CHINA BANS FLICKR.COM a photo sharing website.
    So , the 11th thing which you can find in India and not in China is http://www.flickr.com

    THANKS!!
    AKS

  5. Eric says:

    Poor blindless Indian guys. Visit China first, and then give your judgement. English speeking people in China are far more than those in India! BTW. Why India don’t wanna learn Chinese if it wanna to trade with China? Actually, India is nothing to China.

  6. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    I looked up the numbers of the English language speaking population in India and China. In India, it is 90million as their primary language, with a further 65million as secondary, and 25million as their third language. In mainland China, it is 10million regarded as ‘fluent’ with the state proclaiming a further 300million as ‘learning’. It appears generally agreed that 10.66% of the Indian population speak English, compared to just 0.77% in mainland China. That seems about right to me. The 300million ‘learning’ seems one of those dubious statistics that do the rounds, rather like the Great Wall of China being seen from the Moon.

  7. Sumeet says:

    Hi Eric,

    Sorry, but guess you are Chinese.. !! I don’t intend to offend anyone. But I guess English speaking Chinese have grown in numbers, but they still need to get their spellings right.

    I think you meant “English speaking” not “English speeking”. This shows we are in fact “Blindless Indians” (I guess you meant people who can see)and not “Blind Indians”

    Cheers Buddy

    Regards

    Sumeet

  8. Mahalakshmi says:

    I extremely enjoyed your article. I have never been to China. Being our twin brother, and getting mentioned everywhere with him, I only seem and want to know more about him.

    I like the way you have thoughtfully hand-picked the 10 “items”. They tell you a lot about the nation’s culture, mind-set and governance.

    To me personally from what I have assimilated, maybe also biased to an extent, China and India, seems to depict the two roles or characters from the great Indian epic – Ramayana. China with the dominant character of Ravana and India with dominant character of Rama. Ravana was – the Emperor of three Worlds, Capable ruler, a Great scholar, Supremest wizard, all acquired through dedication and hard work but lacked ‘humane -ness’ and got carried by lust and greed.

    and Rama – Strong believer in leading a virtuous path, Role model, Resilient, Able leader, Able King – it is believed that he led the nation for eleven thousand years – an era of perfect happiness, peace, prosperity and justice.

    While according to me, these two roles depict both these nations, I also see both Ravana and Rama ‘interspersing’ at many touch points in India and China. And not to forget, both are inherently very powerful, its only the path that they adopt, will determine the future.

    I eagerly await your next issue on the 10 things in China.

  9. Jing says:

    You CAN get cotton wool balls in China!

  10. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    Yes – you can get them – but not in the usual stores next to shampoos and make up. My wife always complains about it. She has to go to a medical store to buy them. Unless you’ve found a different supplier. In India, it isn’t a problem.

  11. Howard says:

    1.YouTube

    It is well accessible until May 2009, right before the anniversary of Tiananmen event. I watched some video during the Olympics games in 2008 and spring festival this year.

    2.Twitter

    Same as YouTube.

    3.Facebook

    Same as the above two. BTW, I’m a long time member of facebook and a fan of Yao Ming, US Pres. Obama, and NewYork Times journalist Kristof.

    4.online pornography

    It depend on how you define online pornography. Those hardcore XXX sites are not accessible here in China.

    5.independent media

    It is nowhere in the mainland, but well existing in Hongkong, Macao and Taiwan.

    6.independent judiciary

    Almost the same as 5.

    7.elected government officials

    Most grassroot government officials are openly voted and elected by the community. Senior officials and congressmen are elected by junior officials and counsillors every a few years.

    8.stock markets with foreign companies listed

    There are some listed in HK stock exchange, but none in the mainland stock market.

    9.religion

    You are free to choose your religion. I go to visit a nearby buddalist temple and a kind monk several times every year.
    And he is not a political monk, who, not like other religious figures in other countries, never point accusing fingers at domestic politics.

    10.cotton wool balls

    Not so sure about this one. I suggest you replace this one with “a sleeping ox in the middle of expressway”, hehehe…

  12. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    Elephants are still very much a part of daily life in many Indian cities. Traffic jams are often caused by them. While most are fine, and used to traffic, a male elephant in ‘must’ – in which he essentially comes into heat – is a dangerous animal. Elephants in crowds too, especially during noisy celebrations, can also get spooked, and a moving elephant is not an easy thing to stop. This is what is looks like when it all goes wrong – which thankfully is not very often. One has to wonder where on earth the elephants mahoot was in this video:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/sep/29/elephant-rampage-india

    Now you don’t get that in China. Thankfully I understand the injuries were not severe and the elephant is now calm and also doing ok. But no more parades for him for awhile. – Chris

  13. Jason says:

    One very serious error. No. 1 should be: Bollywood!!!

  14. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    Hi Jason, I love Bollywood films – all those fantastic dances and songs – its an art form in its own right.
    However, China has made some pretty good films too, although it’s gone off the boil recently. I’d recommend however the series of films director Zhang Yimou did with Gong Li – try and check these out, I strongly recommend all of them:
    Red Sorghum
    Raise The Red Lantern
    The Story of Qui Ju
    Shanghai Triad
    Farewell My Concubine
    Some serious cinema there…

    Thanks! – Chris

  15. Sumeet says:

    Today’s Joke: The Indian way of doing Business
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Three contractors are bidding to fix a broken fence at the White House
    in Washington D.C. One from Bangladesh , another from India and the
    third, from China.

    They go with a White House office to examine the fence.

    The Bangladesh contractor takes out a tape measure and does some
    measuring, then works some figures with a pencil. “Well”, he says, “I
    figure the job will run about $900. ($400 for materials, $400 for my
    team and $100 profit for me)”.

    The Chinese contractor also does some measuring and figuring, then
    says, “I can do this job for $700. ($300 for materials, $300 for my
    team and $100 profit for me)”.

    The Indian contractor doesn’t measure or figure, but leans over to the
    White House official and whispers, “$2,700.”

    The official, outraged says, “You didn’t even measure like the other
    guys! How did you come up with such a high figure?”

    The Indian contractor whispers back, “$1000 for me, $1000 for you, and
    we hire the guy from China to fix the fence.”

  16. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    Ha ha – thanks Sumeet – I’ve heard it before but its always good to have a weekend joke! Cheers – Chris

  17. Rohit Shrivastava says:

    Really enjoyed this Article!!!!
    Now going to read the other side of equation!!

  18. gabriel says:

    I am English and I live in China. I have also visited India. I must say that I totally disagree about your assessment of the Chinese being ammoral in comparison to the Indians.

    You talk about the rampant materialism in China. Is the Indian middle class any less materialistic? Aren’t there common cases of girls being killed because their family won’t pay dowry? Aren’t corruption and bullying a huge problem in India as well?

    And most Chinese may not be particularly religious (some are by the way), but they have their own traditional view of morals, dervied mainly from Confucianism, which is independent of organized religion. Maybe this is hard to understand when you come from a country where everything circles around religion. Of course, people do not behave well the whole time in China, but neither do they in India, and in my opinion, injustice is more rampant in India than it is in China.

  19. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    Hi Gabriel, thanks for your input. However I think there is a misunderstanding over the meaning of the word amoral. Amoral is a lack of understanding of the difference between right and wrong. Immoral is knowing the difference, and thus making a specific decision to do wrong.

    In my opinion, China as an athiest society has produced two, possibly three generations that are largely amoral. India however has multiple religions, and there is little excuse for most Indians to do wrong, as in doing so they automatically faced with a moral choice. If Indians are naughty, they know full well the choice they have made. Many Chinese do not understand they even have such a choice, and that it is morally right for them to have such.

  20. gabriel says:

    Religious people are not on average more moral or better behaved than non-religious people. Both personal experience and a cursory look at history and the world can tell you this. In any case, I still disagree that the Chinese are amoral. Chinese society has a concept of right and wrong just as much as any other. And in my experience, the Chinese are far more helpful towards foreigners than the Indians, at least when they don’t hope to get some material gain out of their help.

    British society and many North-European societies are just about as atheist as China nowadays, and that doesn’t mean people don’t have a concept of right or wrong. It’s just that this concept doesn’t derive from the rather unlikely proposition that there is a god who wants us to do things one way or the other.

  21. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    Well in India, it would be Gods, but that’s just splitting divinities.

  22. gabriel says:

    and doesn’t this confim the point? Isn’t even more unlikely that there should be many gods who want us to behave in certain ways? And how do we know these gods all agree with each other?

  23. Mahalakshmi says:

    I dont think it is about splitting divinities…it is just a matter of choice and the one that suits you to choose a path into a meaningful life!!!

  24. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    “And how do we know these gods all agree with each other?”

    Goodness. You’ve just invented Tibetan Buddhism. Now let me consult a Lama about your question….

  25. DisagreEr says:

    My oh my, you can get proxies that bypass the site blocks quite easily (not sure how many are but it is very widespread in the expat community and for anybody who works for an overseas company where all the web traffic is VPN-ed out overseas).

    For small matters, the judiciary is independent and maturing. There is corruption and for matters that are seen as threatening to the state the government overrules the judiciary.

    Amorality, (A) not caring about right or wrong or (B) not having standards of right or wrong. This was true in the past due to the harsh conditions (starvation, privation) but it is changing. My experience as a foreigner here is that people generally know what is right and follow-through (people don’t overcharge and do give me extra change if I am incorrect – even in situations where I would never know, and just this week I was lectured on why I should not eat pine nuts as over-farming of them is hurting the wild bear population). Yes, the morals are different, but they exist (different can be better, they used to have the abstinence-only education thing – and enforced it – but dropped both it and education).

  26. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    @Gabriel – the rise (and fall) of Tibetan Buddhism is an interesting point. The Dalai Lama as a reincarnated institution was invented in the 16th century in meetings held between one of the early Tibetan Kings and the then Khan of Mongolia, at the time the dominant Regional Power. Essentially, the Mongolians wanted “divine” recognition to support their rule, and the mystical Dalai Lama was created (the first one was actually the third, they cleverly posthumously recognised two predecessors) to do that. The Tibetans in return, mainly as a means to obtain military protection from others, passed on their blessings in return to the dominant power. As Mongolia waned and China rose in the Ming & Qing dynasties, this tradition passed to the Chinese Emperor, who obtained blessings (and religious legitimacy) from the Dalai Lama. Tibet was in the business of selling religion, and Tibetan Buddhism became so complex and arcane with all its many Gods that only High Lamas (based of course in Tibet) could understand it. They occasionally went on tours, feted whereever they went for their holy, largely impenetrable wisdom.

    This all worked splendidly well until Mao Zedong decided “religion was poison”, and declared China as an athiest country. Suddenly Tibet didn’t have anything to sell to the Chinese anymore, who also didn’t require any religious legitimizing of their regime, either. There were no Gods. The end result is clear to see.

    I wrote about Mongolia and the Dalai Lamas in a downloadable pdf you can access here if you’re interested:
    http://www.mongoliaexpat.com/Magazine/MongoliaExpat_20079.pdf

    Thanks for your comments – Chris

    http://www.mongoliaexpat.com/Magazine/MongoliaExpat_20079.pdf

  27. Eco-Warrior says:

    @Disagrer – You say “I was lectured on why I should not eat pine nuts as over-farming of them is hurting the wild bear population). Yes, the morals are different, but they exist”

    And this from the very same people who keep Chinese Sun Bears in tiny cages so they cant move and very painfully extract bile from them as its purported to be an aphrodisiac. They’re happy to lecture you over morals as a Foreigner, they’re less happy to practice animal or human rights themselves in reality. Meanwhile Tigers go extinct for the Chinese traditional medicine trade. Some morality. Theyre hypocrites.

  28. gabriel says:

    Actually all this you said about Tibet is very intersting. Thank you. It also thrown some rather less romantic light on the whole tradition of the Dalai Lama.

  29. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    The Dalai Lama is a nice enough guy and I have a lot of sympathy for the Tibetan people. However as a theocratic institution, Tibetan Buddhism proved to be totally unsuitable as a governing vehicle for a more modern, ironically ‘enlightened’ era. They always were in danger of being consumed by first Mongolia, then China, and that is exactly what eventually happened. Ultimately, the system failed the people.

  30. gabriel says:

    The Dalai Lama maybe a nice enough guy, but the system of rule which had the Dalai Lama at its head in Tibet never was very nice, as far as I know.

    It was a feudal theocracy which kept the country in absolute backwardness, and most of the people gained little benefit from it. Even though Chinese accounts maybe exagerrated, it is certainly true that Tibet was in need of a revolution of some sorts in the forties.

  31. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    You can see an essay on the Dalai Lama and the Indian/Chinese issue concerning the matter here: http://www.2point6billion.com/news/2009/10/27/china%e2%80%99s-real-india-position-dismantle-dharamsala-2735.html

  32. Sapna says:

    Hello Chris,
    A great read – the whole series on India China. As also the debate.

  33. zhuang kang says:

    Hi this is Kang, I am currently living in China. i have worked with many indians in my career here in China. And i never thought i would enjoy working with indians this much, but Indians are great people to work with. I just wanted to raise a few points related to this debate. when both country has huge number of population still living in poverty, and are not educated to understand the true meaning of democracy, i am not saying the one party is the solution for it. However, having people who are incapable of voting or vote for personal gains on materialism and money, then the essence of democracy is tained. I know in both india and China, voting for rural viliage minister is actually a decmoratic process, yes even in China for many of you who don’t know. However, the minister who gets in are mostly the ones who gave most of the money to their voters or giving most gifts to their voters in public. In Indian same thing happens. So having an elected official without the essence of the democratic mean is equal to a person without a soul in my opinion. Both country is poor and under developed comparing with the West. I am not ok with Chinese government blocking Utube and Twitter, however just simply debating thinking they do it because of the issues stated above its kind of too simple. There are comprehensive issues why they do it, I still have not figured out all of them yet, however i know part of it is because of the similar issue i stated earlier regarding to the democratic voting issue that defeats the purpose of democracy, as if twitter and facebook as we view it as social website, and many times it really gets to the wrong usage. once again, sometime we need to think through are people ready for this, are you willing to give a baby a knive to play.

  34. Ananda says:

    @zhuang kang,

    I agree with you, democracy has flaws built within. In every country, the number of idiots outnumber the number of reasonable people. So, on a macro level, the idiots could vote for their favourite idiot against the more fit person. But democracy comes with these important qualities: respect for dissent, respect for alternate view points, ability to co-exist, religious freedom, no police brutality (atleast lesser).

    The ideal form of government which many Indians, including Mahatma Gandhi, dream of is “Ram Rajya” (Lord Ram’s Rule) – India’s idea of Utopia. In the epic Ramayana, Rama was the ideal king. Even though he had absolute power, the people questioned the virtue of his wife. He respected it & made her take the fire test. This shows the democratic quality of ancient India – of respecting the popular opinion, yet at the same time being ruled by a duty-bound, ethics-bound, honour-bound dictator.

    I personally believe that India’s ancient system of Varnashrama is the best. The royal clan is raised from the childhood to uphold Dharma. Given that every political leader these days are very corrupt, its better to have Democracy rather than Dictatorship. How do we achieve Ram Rajya today, I have no idea.

  35. zhuang kang says:

    Ananda, another important view point i forgot to mention last time is that if the majority of the society has improved from social fronts, education system, welfare of the people, medical system and etc. And infact this semi-dictator government did achieve those objectives by evolving from dictatorship like Vianem to a semi or maybe a quasi-dictatorship in China. I look at the improvement overall, because just simply saying well China needs democracy is not a solution, the above social improvements are the end results either from a democracy or from something different from what we traditionally known. If China implements democracy when its not ready, then you will see the mirror image of Iraq happenning. so my point is each country has to become democracy or some type of democratic government through its own evolution and change, and its very difficult for outsiders to really understand this dynanmic.

  36. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    @Zhuang Kang, very valuable and balanced comments about your relations with Indians and thank you for sharing with us. Chris

  37. zhuang kang says:

    People who are related to these comments, i just want all of us to really think through why we use the word democrocy all the time, is it a mean or an end. if you really think through its got both mean and end, depends what culture background you coming from, with weterners people like to say democratic process is a great mean to get social, economical, political improvements and its a system that overall treats people fairly. The importance of democratic system is for the sake of democracy, it has to achieve certain objectives for the society and people. Therefore, some system such as the Chinese current system might seem very odd and un-reasonable can be the same means that acheive objectives for the chinese people and society, or improve from before. Its like i used to discuss with Americans when i first came back from Korea for my tour duty in Korea regarding to some people eat dogs, i personally do not consume dogs, but the reaction with most Americans on eating dogs are terrible, they think that is barbarian and uncivilized. Well, the labeling of the Korean people with these unwanted titles simply is a huge mis-understanding, as i put it how Americans have farms to farm cows and etc, Some Koreans or Chinese have the habit of eating dogs, and they farm dogs just like how American farm cows for beef. So other people eating dogs might not be wrong in their culture and land. The Marketing Campaign US government is using on democrocy with middleeast and places where they want to interfere, we just have to take a more objective view points on this.

  38. dhiran kumar says:

    hi Chris Devonshire-Ellis,

    read ur article and comments made by u,Indians and the chinese guyz.i liked it very much ,particularly the healthy debate between all of u. it was not hot as usually happens between Indians and the chinese.

    As u explained everything to everyone so calmly , i really loved that and i bacame ur big fan.i would be eagerly waiting for ur next article

    thanks and regards
    dhiran

  39. Chris Devonshire-Ellis says:

    Thanks Dhiran, our readers tend to be better educated than those on many blogs. Its quality we want, not quantity, and the online debate results speak for themselves. Thanks to all for participating! – Chris

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